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The Final Frontier

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dcurbet
Posts: 3430

Re: The Final Frontier

Post#11 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:37 pm

I read somewhere that separating the motor from the cage results in an out of balance but with as many threads as I’ve been reading over the past few years I can’t recall where but I do think it pertains to the G blower...

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apple
Posts: 586

Re: The Final Frontier

Post#12 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:13 pm

PNZWGN wrote:The way I see it, restoring a W460 (regardless of the engine) is your undergrad work that earns you your BA in W460 ownership. Swapping in a 617a is your postgrad work that earns you your master's degree in W460 ownership. Ultimately one earns their doctorate by later swapping in a 606 which is honestly not going to happen for me, so an air conditioning install will be my terminal degree, thus The Final Frontier.


Love this :lol:

Guess I’m still taking night classes for my GED in W463 ownership

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PNZWGN
Posts: 1007

Re: The Final Frontier

Post#13 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:00 am

kafkaonwheels wrote:It is great to see finally someone has guts. Many people just seem complain, wanting and if no-one rushes to do all the work for them, they drop the idea.

You have a correct picture of needed blower fan. Mercedes part code is A0008306208. I think original is Behr-Hella, same as case, their code is 8EW 009 159-171. Motor without fans is BOSCH 0 130 111 006. Bad news is that this blower is G specific part. And all aftermarket replacements, including Hella, seems currently out of stock. Mercedes shows it available for what is pretty ridiculous price for such part. I kind of remember from somewhere somebody combining fans and motor from different vehicle but I didn’t chase that deeper because I have good part for myself.

Also needed is small bracket what holds the motor in case, if it is missing, A4638350014.


If you think it helps I can try to do a quick write-up on my A/C setup for OM617A, parts, modifications, research and workarounds this far. But it is not yet functional system as I am still ‘greatly enjoying’ last bit of primer sanding. For A/C I have still to figure out lines under hood and modifications to wiring harness.

But anyways: good luck!


Ed thanks a lot... just what I needed to get started finishing the box. And yes, you are 100% that I can't find this fan ANYWHERE other than new from MB. I've looked hard and carefully for several hours. Fortunately I have the small bracket and mounting hardware.

Lowest price I could find the motor/fan from MB: https://www.buymercedespartsnow.com/oem ... 0008306208 :shock: I've tried crossing, international searches, fleabay... I can find very close matches but not an exact match; those are all out of stock:

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I'm just going to have the sit on this for now. Focus on getting the evaporator right. If there is anyone out there that has an old junk box and they're willing to part with this motor/fan please PM me. Stranger things have happened.

Sucks that I have run into this already. I knew this would be a challenging project and BAM here we go. Makes me wonder what all of the current W460 AC users are going to do when their blower fans crap out..?

If you don't mind a write-up I would definitely like to see it. I hate to ask but anything I can learn will certainly help. It doesn't have to be pretty. Thanks man.
"wherever I may roam..."

PNZWGN Mk II build thread: https://clubgwagen.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5605

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PNZWGN
Posts: 1007

Re: The Final Frontier

Post#14 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:02 am

apple wrote:
PNZWGN wrote:The way I see it, restoring a W460 (regardless of the engine) is your undergrad work that earns you your BA in W460 ownership. Swapping in a 617a is your postgrad work that earns you your master's degree in W460 ownership. Ultimately one earns their doctorate by later swapping in a 606 which is honestly not going to happen for me, so an air conditioning install will be my terminal degree, thus The Final Frontier.


Love this :lol:

Guess I’m still taking night classes for my GED in W463 ownership


Credit to ATL-Wagen :D
"wherever I may roam..."

PNZWGN Mk II build thread: https://clubgwagen.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5605

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PNZWGN
Posts: 1007

Re: The Final Frontier

Post#15 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:04 am

blueg wrote:Parker.
You might get in touch with mickeyg.
I think he's on this forum but I know for sure he's on the Aussie G wagon forum.
He fitted A/C to a 617A in a 460 a year or so ago.
He may be able to help with some first hand experience but he may also have RHD G.
I know he made a pretty impressive bracket to hang his compressor at bottom of engine.
Best luck and don't over clean things too much. Oil and sludge keep an old Merc happy.


Noted. Understood. Thank you.
"wherever I may roam..."

PNZWGN Mk II build thread: https://clubgwagen.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5605

Boy G
Posts: 119

Re: The Final Frontier

Post#16 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:47 am

Hi Parker,

I do not quite understand the bit about leaving some of your old heater box parts in there?

I removed everything from the old firewall fanned 460 heater box and replaced it with the box you have recently dragged through your wifes kitchen! It is a dead straight forward swap - same mount holes - same sliders etc. This is the easy part.

CHANGES:

1.Minor trimming of the heavy sound deadening panels against firewall
2.You need to drill holes for the two rubber drainpipes under. Look after them, absurdly expensive
3.You need to cut large holes in the plenum chamber firewall underneath re circ flap. Flap closes holes for fresh air, or closes the fresh air and opens the holes for re circ. See pictures
4.You need to fit the motorized recirc flap. The first one I did - I did not bother - fresh air all the time. This is a difficult in situ job without a right angle drill.
5.The non ac versions have a different bonnet or hood. The air inlet on the ac version has a "roof" over it (just under the grill) to prevent water going into the plenum chamber whereas the non ac allows water into the box that is meant to drain out of a large leaf-filled rubber teat that goes through the transmission hump. (Instead it drains water under the rhs mat)
6. You need to drill the holes for the low and high pressure pipes through the firewall. My plumbing is copied from a factory fitted rhd.
7. Fit a 3 speed fan selector switch and wire it in.
8. Fit recirc switch
9. Fit Thermostat
10. I have given a number of bros my drawing for the Sanden compressor mount that fits under the power steering pump and would gladly send it to you also if you were rhd. Your compressor mount will probably be your biggest challenge.
11. You also need to get the resistor block for fan motor 3 speed when you source it. This is mounted on the inside of the plenum, engine side, under the flap. See pictures

This is what I remember for now.

Boy G
Posts: 119

Re: The Final Frontier

Post#17 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:48 am

Its late and i cant upload photos for now. Will try tomorrow.

dcurbet
Posts: 3430

Re: The Final Frontier

Post#18 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:41 pm

I ll find a Blower motor for you. It sucks it was not in the blower box. Who knew.

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kafkaonwheels
Posts: 316
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Re: The Final Frontier

Post#19 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:08 pm

PNZWGN wrote:Makes me wonder what all of the current W460 AC users are going to do when their blower fans crap out..?

It is not just W460 but also W463 till 2000-2001 and later W461. Same situation with evaporator: no aftermarkets in stock currently, Mercedes shows and for example local official dealer here asks 1567€, for kicks, the blower is 1137€. And few G specific A/C lines and hoses are NLA, I tried to order many of them. Only hope is that when Mercedes runs out of blowers and evaporators they order another run and manufacturer makes a batch for general market. What makes situation weird is that W461 vehicles what uses same parts are still in production.

W124 blower fan is similar, but dimensions are different, wheels seems larger and overall width narrower. There are other similar Hella units but it is lot of digging to find right parts. Those plastic wheels are actually very light, what makes them also bit fragile, but I don’t think that balance is big issue; there is also Mercedessource video where he offers W124 and W201 motors without fans and his special tool to remove them and does not mention balancing.

I recently ordered W461 parts (A4618301000, A4618370000) for cabin air filter: beside better air for self and cleaner interior, I do hope it will extend life of fan motor brushes and bearings as less dust and moisture will reach to it. As dcurbet wrote that for A/C vehicles the hood grill has a plate in centre that water cannot go directly into air intake and extra drains inside on sides that water entering will flow to rail top of firewall. Do you have or plan to install a recirculation flap?


PNZWGN wrote:If you don't mind a write-up I would definitely like to see it. I hate to ask but anything I can learn will certainly help. It doesn't have to be pretty. Thanks man.


I started from situation that the W463 shell I bought had most of A/C parts. Just no compressor, no condenser and no line between condenser and compressor. But it was R-12 system. I don’t have really a dire need for A/C here, other than drying damp air time to time, also vehicle will have glass sunroof, power windows and sliding rear windows. But I am very intrigued by challenge to make one work with OM617A. And I want to use mostly MB parts.



As this thread started with HVAC unit, I will route from that.

Unit what was in my shell is same as on your pictures, early one from 1989, so actually it does not have 463 code on yet, only 460 one, very new ones have also W461 codes. It has internal fan resistor but I will go with external; I cut hole to air intake wall as W463 A/C subsequent install manual directed, I have posted those files in this forum but I can do it again if needed. Resistor itself is common from W124, part A1248210760. If it goes bad, you don’t have to remove whole dash for this.

If I cannot find a new evaporator for reasonable price till assembly time I will use the existing R12 one, it looks good, on pictures there seems to be no differences with R134a one except mounting to expansion valve, nuts versus clamping plate. R134a evaporator: MB A4638300058, HELLA 8FV 351 211-521.

Expansion valve
is something to always have a new one. You have to look that it has right mounting pattern and for right gas. Some parts claim to be compatible with multiple gases, I am not an A/C expert here to know if it is possible as some info says that valve is specific to gas. I think that R134a clamped one is A1408300484.




Now, if you are or someone else is going to use something like Sanden compressor, generic condenser, lines and wiring then following might be not much help. Except bracket section.

Compressor I will be using MB one, made by Denso, 10PA15C, uses R134a. I got it from W124 and has MB code A0002340611. Compressors used by Mercedes has rev sensor and control module compares it with engine RPM, if difference is too big it will disconnect the clutch. I cleaned it and got all new seals. I had bit trouble finding V-belt pulley to replace serpentine one. Many V-belt pulleys are large and used on tractors: that messes up compressor RPMs and belt location. Finally got one 134mm O.D. from Pajero II. Later found out that 500GE also has R134a compressor with V-belt, 10PA17C, A0002340111. But using this rev feature requires that you can feed suitable RPM signal to module, I have an OM617 transmission adapter plate (6170110245) with signal pickup from flywheel, it will also drive my W463 tach, albeit with small error: difference between OM603 and OM617 flywheels is 144 vs 140 teeth.

For compressor mounting I found original N/A engine bracket and modified the heck out of it. I tried M115 water pump housing and some thermostats but in the end went with original A/C one (6172031473) but replaced cap with shorter from M103/M104 (1032030274).

Here I must thank all the people who have done this before me, it would be much harder to figure out things if there would be no information shared in various forums. Hopefully someone in future finds few bits here and all is not too crap.

Here are pictures of various stages.
I shaved off the base and relocated rear leg from motor mount to alternator bracket. There is also reinforcement behind the leg and bushings under holes. Extended the bracket height, added threaded bases for compressor mount, and lots of ribs. Other option instead modifying bracket leg is have a different turbo oil drain pipe.
IMG_3469.jpg

The spacing is so that there is room between compressor and alternator for pipe to turbo.
IMG_3474.jpg

Later when I got right thermostat housing, the front edge needed some cutting, instead of using washers I got a bushing with right height for tensioner welded into place with thick ribs. Washers are used because turbo engine pulley is different from N/A. Last modification I realized to make was to have front hole large enough that water pump can be replaced without taking this god damn awful monstrum off in engine bay when pump wets itself.
IMG_7314.jpg


I read that common issue is this bracket developing cracks. For that I tried to mount compressor as near to engine as possible. I hope that 10 piston Denso is smoother than old Yorks. I think it is very important to get the bracket sit very snug and tight, also by EPC the mounting hardware is 10.9 studs and bolts, some 12.9. One problem with this bracket remains, that the tensioning pulley is on tight side, what is not an ideal solution. Tensioning mechanism itself is also weird, but I will try it out first if Mercedes thought it to be sufficient. Cooling hose to bottom of radiator will run over the belt with plenty of space.


For condenser I picked up one from W210 E-class, A2108300570.
I thought long going with W463 aluminium radiator, as I have it and mounting parts, and then it would have been real easy to mount G condenser but I really don’t like the internal oil cooling. I may be wrong but I think it is a joke. For mounting a proper oil cooler inside right wing I would had to relocate washer tank, what would have needed relocating vacuum tank from left to frame… And mounting any fragile finned metal piece flowing engine oil below front frame tube on 4x4 is above my brain geometry. So I will have a heavy brass radiator with separate oil cooler.

As I understand, the bigger condenser the better. W210 has actually larger core than G, it covers exactly whole radiator and oil cooler, and fits between intercooler. One deciding factor was also threaded line connections. And it costs one tenth of G one. In the end there were few other potential candidates but at start, going through Hella catalogue, it is bit overwhelming.

I had to cut off valve from pipe and weld hole shut, also remove old and make a new bracket what secures those pipes. Custom brackets for mounting but those are made transferable. And brackets to radiator and cutting of bit of radiator edge reinforcement. I don’t have good detail pictures but if interested I can make them.

Here is condenser peeking out at bottom, as wide as radiator and oil cooler; faintly visible two brackets welded to metal parts of radiator where condenser sits.
IMG_6458.jpg

Here is where the connection comes out at bottom, one will go to dryer and other to compressor.
IMG_7255.jpg

For a dryer I just bought a G one, A4635000249. This is another part what is always recommended to swap out for new. Originally on this shell dryer sat outside under grille but due intercooler the space was gone. I still have the old bracket, also original steering cooler for holding one fan and spare air flap piece. I ordered new bracket for mounting dryer into engine bay corner, A4635012520, seen on above picture.

Lines. Original routing with OM603 was around engine as compressor was on left side: from expansion valve one line went into engine bay under pedal box and other under battery. I got another original line and now both connections are under battery, like some gas engine early W463s or most W460s (?). All my connections will be UNF threads, I doubt if it something anyone else wants to chase. If you need I can make a pictures and measure those cabin lines, not sure on their exact codes. From condenser to dryer I already found a Mercedes piece, what needs just longer new hose part, A4635009272, comes with valve. Like old interior pieces this is made of steel, newer G lines are made of something called aluminium. Now I have a bunch of W124 lines for compressor mountings but I can deal with this when body and frame is one. One G line used with M103 engine would be ideal but it is NLA. The system needs high and low valve and if Mercedes control is used, one sensor port on one line, another one is on dryer. Mercedes passenger cars also have mufflers on lines.

For wiring and control I have original harness. Needs some modification for dual fans, maybe better watertight connectors to engine bay. Schematic for those things is same, like in install manual, till everything went to full CanBUS. I know that last production year OM617 turbo SD vehicles had A/C disconnect switch for full throttle, and that many modern vehicles still do this but I don’t see it on 90s G or other Mercedes diagrams. Maybe the control module recognises rapidly rising RPMs but it does not make exactly sense to me.

One another G specific part for original system is dash thermostat switch, A0038209610, Ranco K57 H7000/001. There is no generic replacement but it is like a fridge part, measures temperature near expansion valve by capillary tube and clicks clutch of compressor on-off depending pressure on spring dialled by knob.

There is nothing overwhelmingly complex in such A/C systems. Getting it packaged nice and tight tho… :roll:

It sure came a long text, probably forgot something important and fouled up some language in haste. But let it be answered and clarified next time.
1985 300 GD Turbo (Project)

dcurbet
Posts: 3430

Re: The Final Frontier

Post#20 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:24 pm

A whole ton of info. Great post.
I just wanted to confirm that indeed the lines on a 460 exit under the battery. Factory setup. I personally would make all the lines locally (that s what I did for the green 460 I had to revive the ac on) easy and not a ton of money and all lays in how you plan it (length and orientation). Why not skip the whole rpm sensor since it’s a ton of work and unknowns for very little benefit. Tons of power with your new super pump. Who cares about AC drag on full throttle.

This is the first I hear about the 463 rad not being all that superior to the old 460 brass(recored). I like to hear that since retrofitting the 463 is a bit of work. In general.

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