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4 Speed Manual woes

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reinhardtius
Posts: 796

4 Speed Manual woes

Post#1 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:25 am

Guys,

It's 27 degrees here and I'm working on the dirty street of Philly trying to replace my alternator, clutch master and slave cylinders. Need some advice other than to get a heated garage

1. How do I take off the alternator? What belt do I need to replace? Anyone know the numbers? It's a 617 non turbo
2. Best way to get the clutch lines free of slave and master cylinders without stripping fittings?
3. Best way to get to top bolt on slave cylinder. It's tight space up there!

Thanks

mailman
Last edited by reinhardtius on Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Chris
Posts: 2973

Re: Service on 460

Post#2 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:12 pm

snyder.hunter wrote:Guys,

It's 27 degrees here and I'm working on the dirty street of Philly trying to replace my alternator, clutch master and slave cylinders. Need some advice other than to get a heated garage

1. How do I take off the alternator? What belt do I need to replace? Anyone know the numbers? It's a 617 non turbo
2. Best way to get the clutch lines free of slave and master cylinders without stripping fittings?
3. Best way to get to top bolt on slave cylinder. It's tight space up there!

Thanks

mailman


1. The alt. is held onto the engine with 2 long bolts (on RHD they can be 13mm, on LHD they are 17mm), one on top (the adjuster with teeth), one on bottom, remove the nuts on the back and slide the bolts forward/out of the alt.
Alt. belt is the inner most belt, closest to the engine.
Cant help on belt length for a RHD (alt. is mounted higher than LHD)

2. soak the hell out of those threaded ends with multiple applications of thin oil (NOT WD-40), then use a high quality (NOT Chinese) 12mm brake line wrench/flare wrench to loosen.

3. I have had luck with 3 feet of extensions and maybe a wobble end between my ratchet and socket, I have also unbolted the trans. cross member to drop the back down, this also lets you shove it over and mahe room for your hand.

User avatar
ontum
Posts: 394

Re: alt + clutch master cylinder service

Post#3 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:08 pm

Hello Hunter-

Funny thing. I bought my 1981 LWB White 280ge about 10 months ago and had to do an alternator, slave, cylinder, and I think I'm still going to need to do a clutch master cylinder because I'm still having problems every hundred milers or so.

1. I think Chris had good points on taking out the Alt. But I would also say I that I always throw some Worth Rust Off on any bolts and let it sit for a half hour because of rusted bolts you may have. I think the belt is a 10x1035 but cannot be sure. I would just take it off and measure it.
2. I again agree with Chris, really soak those with a penetrating rust off and use a really good flare nut wrench. If they strip its not that big of deal as they sell vise grips for just that purpose. I'm looking at them now and think the model numbers are 7LW and 4LW.
3. I had lots of fun getting my slave cylinder off. I broke the bleed screw off trying the bleed to system, so I had to do the whole slave cylinder. I could get to those bolts on my 280 and think you can on your 300 without removing anything, but it takes the right combo of extensions and wobbly to get to it. I think I used about two feet of extension with a half wobbly that is apart of my extension all on a 3/8" ratchet. This takes some time, but once you get the right combo its not to hard.

Hope this helps-
Craig in Portland

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jonathan joseph
Posts: 478

Re: alt + clutch master cylinder service

Post#4 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:50 pm

Hunter

If your alternator set up is standard there are three bolts you need to loosen. The bottom bolt on the alternator at something like six o'clock viewed from the front. I think it's 17mm. Bolt goes in from the front with a nut on the back. You will need to hold both with a wrench or ratchet. Then there is the tensioner lock bolt on top at about 10 to 11 o'clock. This is a fancy bolt that actually has another bolt running through it sideways. The bolt again enters from the front and has a nut on the back. Hold the head (on the front) but do not try to turn the front, just lock it in position with a wrench (again I think 17mm) and loosen the nut on the back. Loosening this nut will allow you to loosen the tensioner bolt which comes in from the side @ about 8 o'clock viewed from the front. This bolt has a long hex head (13mm) Loosen this bolt (counter clockwise) and it will allow the alternator to swing in towards the engine and loosen the belt.
Spray this mechanism with some sort of penetrating lube before you try. It will help immensely. Do not force anything. The swing of the alternator is rigidly controlled by the tensioner, it doesn't swing free like many cars. If you force the tensioner without freeing the lock bolt you will twist or break the tensioner bolt ( costs like 50 bucks) Don't try and pry the alternator in or out, it should move freely on the adjuster. If it's frozen take the bolts all the way out and clean them before replacing.


Good luck
Jonathan

PS Line wrenches are the only way to go on old hydraulic lines. The cost of new lines and the frustration will far out way the cost of the correct wrench. And penetrating lube of some sort.

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Dai C
Posts: 769

Re: alt + clutch master cylinder service

Post#5 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:26 pm

The alternator can usually be repaired by just swapping out the voltage regulator/brushholder assy. It is held in the back with two screws that are sometimes slotted or phillips or ?. It is a very easy fast fix that is the cause of the problem over 85% or more of the time. http://www.google.com/products?client=f ... CB8QzAMwAg
Really.
Or you can take it off and put a rebuilt on.
-Dai

Avoid the regulators that have the rectangular box on the back, use the stock style. The rectangular ones are, how you say... Crap.
You can make a hydraulic fitting wrench by taking a high quality box end wrench (or combination box end) and cutting out section wide enough to slip past the hardline. I have made these and they work fine. The goal is to have a box style wrench around the fitting instead of just an end wrench with only two flats engaging the fitting. That will lead to a very big, expensive problem if the hardline fitting is damaged. You will have the best success bleeding that system with a pressure bleeder. It is a must in my experience.
A dry covered space is better than the street. Heat is nice too.

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reinhardtius
Posts: 796

Re: alt + clutch master cylinder service

Post#6 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:44 pm

Dai C wrote:The alternator can usually be repaired by just swapping out the voltage regulator/brushholder assy. It is held in the back with two screws that are sometimes slotted or phillips or ?. It is a very easy fast fix that is the cause of the problem over 85% or more of the time. http://www.google.com/products?client=f ... CB8QzAMwAg
Really.
Or you can take it off and put a rebuilt on.
-Dai

Avoid the regulators that have the rectangular box on the back, use the stock style. The rectangular ones are, how you say... Crap.
You can make a hydraulic fitting wrench by taking a high quality box end wrench (or combination box end) and cutting out section wide enough to slip past the hardline. I have made these and they work fine. The goal is to have a box style wrench around the fitting instead of just an end wrench with only two flats engaging the fitting. That will lead to a very big, expensive problem if the hardline fitting is damaged. You will have the best success bleeding that system with a pressure bleeder. It is a must in my experience.
A dry covered space is better than the street. Heat is nice too.


Dai,

I'll have to get a Craftsman wrench and just cut a hole in it large enough. That sounds like a good idea. Either that or if it is a little more for a boxed wrench I'll just pick one of those guys up.

I have a used alternator sitting here on my desk courtesy of Potomac German Auto. The guys over there owed me a favor, hence it's cost (or lack thereof)

I'm going to soak those lines starting tomorrow and start breaking them loose tomorrow evening and into Thursday morning. Slow and steady seems to win the race. I know how much of a PITA it is to make a new clutch line (did it on my 5 speed getrag'ed 300GDT)

Hunter

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Dai C
Posts: 769

Re: alt + clutch master cylinder service

Post#7 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:34 pm

If the alternator is sitting there take the regulator out of it and swap it out for the one on the truck. If that fixes the one on the truck, voila!, you have a spare on the desk that you will need a reg unit for. It will take 10 minutes. An alt swap will take 1 to 1.5 hrs done right in a heated garage. I can have one out and on the bench in about 20 minutes but going in is the rub. Actually the G is a little easier than the sedans but they are not easy to install in either situation. You must deal with the lower pivot bolt from under the rig. Can you say dirtintheface? I knew you could.
-Dai

Remove the battery pos or neg before fooling around with the alternator.

User avatar
reinhardtius
Posts: 796

Re: alt + clutch master cylinder service

Post#8 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:14 pm

Okay, well allow me to report back. I have run out of money temporarily (times are tough LOL) so I wasn't able to get the tools I needed to do the job right yet. I pulled the voltage regulator from my alternator and it appeared to have a good amount of graphite left on the little sticks. Also, the used alternator I have looks a LOT older than what's in there right now. My thought is perhaps the belt is not tight enough. The battery does charge at idle, but when you are moving it does not seem to charge. Does this sound like a belt issue? This alternator looks like it's fairly new and the regulator had a production stamp date of 2005 whereas the used alternator Potomac German Auto sent me did not even have a date on it and also showed signs of being very old just by its looks. I suppose it would make an acceptable core, but I don't want to put in that regulator from the old alternator.

Should I just replace the belt and see if I have better results? The alternator bracket appears to be sort of rough, especially where the tensioner thinger is. It gets bent and does not stay within the nut when tightening it up. I am thinking I'll make something else so that it may go tighter without making it ghetto or half assed.

Worse comes to worse I'll just get another alternator bracket.

As for the clutch items. I received the master cylinder and slave cylinder, but don't have the boxed wrenches I need to do the job yet. My questions are

1. Can I loosen them with Vise grips?
2. What if I just unbolt the master and slave and snip the clutch lines and put in a new clutch line of a different material? The way I see it is that I will be taking off this body over the summer and putting on a single cab so I'll have to put new clutch lines in when I convert it to LHD. Can I find something that will do the trick for 7 months max? Does a rubber hose have too much flex? Perhaps a hard plastic line? Maybe I can get a clutch line and a pipe bender and just spend the weekend doing it...

What would you do in my situation?

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stevegsmith
Posts: 2109

Re: alt + clutch master cylinder service

Post#9 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:32 pm

Mailman,
If the pulley is turning, the alt should be charging. It's gotta be either the regulator (fairly cheap) or the alt, or something wrong with the wiring....I guess.
It's always a good idea to replace the belt.
You should get a new (or used) bracket if the one you have isn't working well. If it isn't tensioned properly, the belt will wear out or one of the alt/bracket bolt holes will or both.
I think you can buy cheap wrenches individually at any hardware store.
Good luck grasshopper.
steve
p.s. It is a sin to use vice-grips on a G-wagen (or anything that isn't a VW). You should know better. Consider this a spanking for even mentioning it.

User avatar
reinhardtius
Posts: 796

Re: alt + clutch master cylinder service

Post#10 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:35 pm

stevegsmith wrote:Mailman,
If the pulley is turning, the alt should be charging. It's gotta be either the regulator (fairly cheap) or the alt, or something wrong with the wiring....I guess.
It's always a good idea to replace the belt.
You should get a new (or used) bracket if the one you have isn't working well. If it isn't tensioned properly, the belt will wear out or one of the alt/bracket bolt holes will or both.
I think you can buy cheap wrenches individually at any hardware store.
Good luck grasshopper.
steve
p.s. It is a sin to use vice-grips on a G-wagen (or anything that isn't a VW). You should know better. Consider this a spanking for even mentioning it.


Zoiks! Okay, so I'll buy the following when I can

Refurb Alternator
proper alternator bracket
proper boxed wrenches for clutch line
new belt

Spanking accepted (no sexual pun implied ;)

Hunter

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