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5-Speed Auto in a W460

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syncro_G
Posts: 824

Re: 5-Speed Auto in a W460

Post#11 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:56 am

Another benefit of going with Ole's controller is that it can be programmed to control a VNT turbo.
It might need additional parts to do so.

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diesel_jim
Posts: 1077

Re: 5-Speed Auto in a W460

Post#12 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:06 am

It can control 2x turbo's

It's an amazing bit of kit! can't wait to get mine plumbed in.

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vadimivanovich
Posts: 8643

Re: 5-Speed Auto in a W460

Post#13 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:14 pm

A bunch more information:

My transmission came out of a 2002 C230, which makes it a later version with needle bearings but it still has the earlier style double-sided friction discs. Some of these friction stacks were changed to a single-sided friction style, the benefit of which I can only assume to be getting more frictions into the same space. I've sourced OEM rebuild parts (some German, some not) from Natpro for $199 as of 12/2014. Their kits come with the Mercedes star on each part, straight from the manufacturer! A highly reputable (and expensive) local specialty shop gets their kits here too. Seems solid to me.

So far, the master overhaul kit looks like basic gaskets and seals while the frictions are offered separately as a set or individually. The number of frictions vary from one application to another and the kit seems to come with enough for the basic setup. I plan to add as many frictions as possible in each stack, so I will have to order additional ones. The way it works is: each friction surface absorbs a certain amount of energy during engagement. The more frictions you have, the less energy absorption per-friction there is. This also translates into slower wear per friction. You can really appreciate the benefits of synthetic ATF by studying the innards of a transmission - it's all about friction!
Image
Since I see no obstacle in doing so, I'm switching from double-sided to single-sided frictions wherever possible. Some stacks only come double-sided. At the end of each stack there is a piston used to apply pressure when the gear engages. The piston comes in at least two different heights, and I've heard of people machining them down to free up more space for additional frictions. I'm not sure that I'll be going that far but it is secrets like this that open up great possibilities for extreme torque.
Image
One essential detail I should bring up is about friction stack gap. If you imagine a stack of friction discs (and steels if double-sided frictions are used) sitting in a cylinder with the apply piston at the bottom and a snap ring at the top, there's one thing missing: the gap. There MUST be space in there so things don't just burn up when free-wheeling. The necessary gap is up for debate. Apparently the factory has some fancy & complicated way to determine this, usually resulting in a pretty generous gap. The ATSG manual recommends a gap range of 0.25-0.33 mm per double-sided friction, or 0.13-0.16 mm for single sided. I've heard of about half that clearance being used in performance builds where longevity is of less of a concern. Personally, I intend to set up on the tighter side, perhaps just below the ATSG window.
Image
At this point you may be asking how the gap can be set. For a single-sided stack, it's a matter of the number of frictions, and the thickness of the snap ring that holds it all together. For double-sided stacks, the thickness of the steels will be another variable - any steel in the stack can have a different thickness from the rest. If they're all thin, you'll get space for more frictions and or gap. The apply piston can also be changed or machined, which will affect friction space and gap too.

There's still more I could write about but if you've made it this far I'll have mercy on you until the next post. I think once you understand what to do, upgrading this transmission should be a breeze. Making it set up for the absolute maximum possible torque would involve buying lots of parts from AMG or V12 versions of the trans, which would get expensive fast. A basic rebuild and substantial upgrade seems easily within the reach of an adventurous DIY-er with way too much time on his hands.

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grazza
Posts: 1013

Re: 5-Speed Auto in a W460

Post#14 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:43 pm

So as I understand it there are 2 major typres of the NAG1 722.6xx transmission, the W5A330 and W5A580.

From Harold's site, for the W463:

W5A330
722.610-611
3.932
2.408
1.486
1
0.83
3.1

W5A330
722.630-611
3.95
2.42
1.486
1
0,831
3.16

W5A580
722.630-634
3.588
2.186
1.405
1
0.831
3.16

So it looks like the 722.630-611 is the pick for the lowest first. But its going to be very rare to find one.
Its not even mentioned in this big list

I wonder if anyone can answer some of these questions?

Is there some meaning to the "xx" numbering used 722.6xx?
Are they dimensionally the same or is the W5A580 longer?
Can the ratios be changed irrespective of the model of 722.6xx?
Is there a "common" version to look out for which best suits a W460 with OM606?
Does is really matter that much which version to choose, other than get the latest one?

I suppose its unlikely I will get much of a choice of which 722.6xx I will end up with, if it matters.

thanks,
Graham.

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vadimivanovich
Posts: 8643

Re: 5-Speed Auto in a W460

Post#15 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:21 pm

Good questions.

Gear ratio is one important question - the low gearing will only be found on a W5A330 version from what I understand. They are typically (and logically) units found in 4 or 6 cylinder cars, of which there are very many. Keep in mind that you'll never feel the difference between a 3.93 vs. 3.95 1st gear. Anything about 3.9 +/- will be equivalent to a standard 4-speed G 1st gear. 3.5 is a jump that you'd feel, especially rock-crawling off-road.

The "best" clutch packs (larger diameter & more frictions) are on the W5A580 versions but no 606a came with that version. It's simple enough to make changes to the W5A330 so I wouldn't sweat this. The 580 was intended for the massive HP & torque of AMG V8 & V12 monsters - something we really wont be needing for the 606/a.

After 2000, they did away with the bronze bushings, and after 2002 they transitioned to single-sided clutches. There are other differences such as caged needle bearings with more needles in them, sprags (one-way bearings) that are wider, and various valve body updates. I've heard of the 722.6 being used as late as 2012 in certain vehicles, but don't quote me on that.

I bought 2 transmissions before getting what I was willing to work with. Even now, I see plenty of room to improve but am unwilling to buy a third. Fortunately, they are extremely common, inexpensive (relatively), and parts are available.

Edit: To answer the size question - there is a longer version of the W5A580, used in the V12 and possibly elsewhere. The fact is that this extra length does little for the weak points in the transmission, which are few. The G-version of the 722.6 has 4 gears in the planetary set instead of 3. The 3-planetary version is used in just about everything you see on the road aside from V12 or AMG V8 cars. The 3-planetary version is often used behind Chrysler Magnums that have been pumped up for drag racing, and only very rarely have problems. Get the regular, smaller one... unless you really like headaches. The main body & tail ends are generally the same for the "short" version, but the front housing, which includes the bell housing/oil pump/torque converter, is different according to what engine it is set up for. The 606 type bell housing has the starter bulge on the left and a flat top.

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Chris
Posts: 4544

Re: 5-Speed Auto in a W460

Post#16 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:27 pm

Very good stuff here.

More please...

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GermanStar
Posts: 415

Re: 5-Speed Auto in a W460

Post#17 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:56 am

Very interesting. One day, maybe, I will put in to my old G this gear box. It is good to know this infos and where to buy controller for gearbox.

Thanks

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diesel_jim
Posts: 1077

Re: 5-Speed Auto in a W460

Post#18 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:00 am

There's a good value new Ole controller for sale on the UK devon44 site.

http://www.devon4x4.com/index.php?optio ... Itemid=106

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bram_r
Posts: 939

Re: 5-Speed Auto in a W460

Post#19 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:41 pm

So as I understand it there are 2 major typres of the NAG1 722.6xx transmission, the W5A330 and W5A580.


I came across a 722.606, supposed to be fitted in c-class w202 and w203 e-class w210 and w211.

To add on your list of 722.6xx type trannies.

gr. bram

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vadimivanovich
Posts: 8643

Re: 5-Speed Auto in a W460

Post#20 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:22 am

Okay, a short update:

The transmission project got stalled due to an unexpected problem: the output shaft is different and will not fit the G flange, at least not the flanges I have. I'll be researching part numbers to see what is being used on W463 G models with the 722.6, but for now work has stopped. I may be able to make a flange by cutting up two others, but that's a last resort. Unfortunately, this bottleneck has caused me to divert my energy to other parts of the project, but I want my workbench back so will be switching back again soon.

Stay tuned...

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